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chrisitar

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Can anyone elaborate on the topic mentioned here: 


He mentions before how they are improvising within the Persian Radif (Daramad, Gushe, Avaz) then he mentions the "Raqs" (sp?) which were borrowed from Indian music. There is no information about this online, is anyone familiar with how Hindustani Sangeet influenced Persian music and what the relationship between Indian "raga" and Iranian "raq" is?

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Tristan von Neumann

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It seems Persians did have a great interest in Indian music, judging from the translations of Indian music treatises.

The 17th century Sonata "La Chilana" by Christian Herwich was probably conceived at the Persian Court - together with a probably Punjabi musician named "Chilana"...
Indian musicians served at the Persian court, similar to Italian musicians serving at Northern Europe's courts.

What I know of traditional Persian music is that it uses similar modes, but the Raga concept is from India. Persians also seem to use "Maqam" as a synonym for "Raga".
Some Indian Thaats are said to be ancient Greek and Persian.

Anyone here from Persia to enlighten us further?

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chrisitar

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Thanks for the reply, Tristan. I agree there were Indian musicians performing in "PersianATE" (i.e. Mughal) courts, and that is probably how most of the musical sharing and spreading of regional concepts was shared. The modes in Persian music (based on the Radif) are not similar at all to Raga or Maqam with a few exceptions. Avaz e Isfahan and Raga Kirwani are a close match and Dastgah e Segah and Maqam Segah are shared between Iran and the Arab world. Other than that the Dastgah are based on gushe and quarter tones which are absent in Raga music with the exception of the andolan in Darbari Dha and Ga and some Shruti differences in Komal Re between Marwa and Puriya. Other than those, Indian music does not use quarter tones explicitly, only as a meend. Persian music has quarter tone fretted instruments. This is why I wonder how the Persian music has been influenced by Indian music and the Raga/Raq comparison. To me, other than the basic framework of modal improvisation and the obvious influence Farsi had on Hindustani (-stan = Persian for place, Sitar is itself a Persian word, etc.) I see hardly any other comparison. 
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Tristan von Neumann

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When I think about it, it seems that the Vadi-Samvadi concept is what makes a mode into a Raga, which is then finding the motifs associated with this color.
As I understand, Ragas are like fractal formulas, like crystals.

This is why I believe Indian music had the impact on Europe as I try to figure out.

The framework of a Raga is much more suited to produce harmonic counterpoint.

Is there something like different frameworks in the same tone material in Persian music, that serves improvisation?
Or is Persian music more like a "stream of consciousness"?

Just finished mixing: here's another Raga-based piece by Dietrich Buxtehude.

Buxtehude's style is in fact so close to Indian music, that I assume there was some kind of direct knowledge (The city of L├╝beck was after all part of a trade connection).

In the painting, there is a black servant boy, a symbol for rich households that could afford exotic imports. Why not the music.

Anyway, enjoy, and feel free to comment.

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chrisitar

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Reply with quote  #5 
The concept of arohi/avrohi in raga construction is actually paralleled in Persian classical music. If you listen to the Tar maestro explain in the video I posted, the way he explains 'putting the octave together' with the use of ascending and descending structure, this sounds to me like a real connection with Indian classical music. The structure of the performance in Persian Classical Music (Asil music) is less of a 'stream of conciousness' than when presenting a raga actually. There are only 2 main parts to a raga performance really - alap, gat. Within the Alap there are alap,jor,jhalla and within the gat there is vilambit, madhyam, drut. Within the alap there is intentional focus on moving down and up the octave and to the vadi. And within the whole performance there is a gradual speeding up of rhythm, and a shortening of melodic passages. Within those constraints the player can improvise within the raga freely. Persian music is much more defined. The entire repetior is written down in the Radif. This is ~700 or so melodies that form the basis of every performance. It is memorized and given nuance by the player. He says "90%" of the concert was improvised. This is where the definition of the word starts to break down for me, since he is playing from the Radif which means it has been memorized and practiced for years beforehand. What is 'improvised' is the subtle nuance and combinations of established melodies. The performance speeds up and slows down frequently. While the unmetered section is in the beginning of a raga, unmetered sections are scattered through a dastgah performance. The modulations are where the 'free flow' comes in, the choice to move to a different melodic framework is somewhat up to the player. I'd recommend watching this entire video including his explanations to get a good beginner understanding.
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Tristan von Neumann

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Reply with quote  #6 
This is very enlightening, thanks!

It seems that European Baroque music has adapted the climactic model for ostinato variations, which are often at the end of a set of pieces and gradually speed up the divisions.

This piece is as far as I have discovered the Gaud Sarang adaptation in Europe - what Tala would you play to it?

(note the meends and echo parts, sound familiar? :)


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