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geezerjazz

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Reply with quote  #46 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barron Singh
Because once you devote yourself to actually examining African music you will learn that the origin of the bowed instruments is African( Masinko), that chamber music and it’s harmonies are African (Ziryab), and that thw development of improvised melodies over harmonies isban extension of the Tasqism in Baroque Music, whose etymology is an afro-asiatic word (Barack, meaning Lightning or quick thinking or enlightenment). I don’t expect you to do anything other than cling to your predisposed suppositions. It is enough to simply state the facts. I’m not here to convince those who were taught to believe otherwise by the ill equipped academic sources of the past century which we know now to be tainted by inherent bias.


It's not sufficient to point to cross-cultural similarities to make your case. One must also demonstrate temporal precedence, and articulate a transmission mechanism. Without those we are simply dealing in speculation.
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Sanjeeb

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Reply with quote  #47 

Barron thanks for sharing your knowledge. Makes a lot of sense to me.

Quote

'Because once you devote yourself to actually examining African music you will learn that the origin of the bowed instruments is African( Masinko), that chamber music and it’s harmonies are African (Ziryab), and that thw development of improvised melodies over harmonies isban extension of the Tasqism in Baroque Music, whose etymology is an afro-asiatic word (Barack, meaning Lightning or quick thinking or enlightenment).'

End of Quote

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jazzman1945

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Reply with quote  #48 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=35&v=dn_1O3J56E8
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Tristan von Neumann

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Reply with quote  #49 
If I may...


Having compared ICM with European Renaissance and Baroque music for a while now, I also must say that the "all harmony comes from Africa", and Baroque music is from Africa, is really quite a stretch.

The ties to Africa are very old via the Arab conquests and Black African presence on the Iberian Peninsula.
Yet, Baroque music only started to develop when Europe was (re)discovering India (a coincidence it maybe, but I have many reasons to think it is not)
There are more similarities of Europe's 1580-1660 music to Indian Music than to African music.
If anything, Iberian music of the Middle Ages were influenced by North African music, which was then taken over by Arabs and other non-Subsaharan tribes.

Regarding instruments: this is really a very hard discipline. This is music making at its core. Stringed instruments have probably existed since the Stone age, and independently developed from a musical bow, which was a hunting bow on free time...

If you take all what is left of Black African ancient music culture today, it surely must have been declining for a long time in regards to polyphony and harmonic complexity.
If African culture can claim any impact on "Western" music, then it is modern poly-rhythmic styles and the development of jazz in African diaspora from surrounding music styles, also Reggae, and many fusions of Pop Music.
The first Jazz-like music we know of is from Creole pianist Louis-Moreau Gottschalk, who had probably Jewish, but not African ancestry - have fun with this fine piece, where you also can hear that he was friends with Chopin and Liszt while living in Paris:

or this Symphony:


(and of course, there is Beethoven... these minutes of op. 111 are priceless:
)

If you survey for example very early South African music recordings from the late 19th and early 20th century phonographs, you will notice that most of those music styles does not exist anymore and has been taken over by European music.
I had the rare opportunity to listen to those recordings during a lecture given by a South African musicologist, whose point was that Western music completely obliterated many traditions, not on purpose, but by the very own participation of African people who just absorbed everthing new they heard.
Something that never happened in India btw. - ICM is still in very good shape.

True polyphony as in for example 15th century Franco-Flemish music never existed in Africa, as far as we know.
Today, ancient African polyphony is only practiced by remote tribes of Pygmy peoples.
For example:


On the other hand, ICM has steady documentation of its musical development in treatises that are hundreds of years old.
ICM has very complex hidden harmonics, and it practises circular improvisation over rhythm and melodic patterns for ages.

If African includes Arab: the "Maqam" concept is as far as I know younger than the Raga concept.
But who influenced whom is hard to say, because there was always Arab presence in South India.

Now here's two examples of what I think is influenced by or directly copied from India:

(Again, these are mere mashups, not on spot tempo corrected mixes)




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jazzman1945

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Reply with quote  #50 
The name "Bamboula" of Gottschalk's piece  always embarrassed me; immediately recalled the Italian pop song "La Bambola"(Doll) in the 60's. It turns out that this is just a djembe [smile]
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