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geezerjazz

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Reply with quote  #46 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barron Singh
Because once you devote yourself to actually examining African music you will learn that the origin of the bowed instruments is African( Masinko), that chamber music and it’s harmonies are African (Ziryab), and that thw development of improvised melodies over harmonies isban extension of the Tasqism in Baroque Music, whose etymology is an afro-asiatic word (Barack, meaning Lightning or quick thinking or enlightenment). I don’t expect you to do anything other than cling to your predisposed suppositions. It is enough to simply state the facts. I’m not here to convince those who were taught to believe otherwise by the ill equipped academic sources of the past century which we know now to be tainted by inherent bias.


It's not sufficient to point to cross-cultural similarities to make your case. One must also demonstrate temporal precedence, and articulate a transmission mechanism. Without those we are simply dealing in speculation.
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Sanjeeb

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Reply with quote  #47 

Barron thanks for sharing your knowledge. Makes a lot of sense to me.

Quote

'Because once you devote yourself to actually examining African music you will learn that the origin of the bowed instruments is African( Masinko), that chamber music and it’s harmonies are African (Ziryab), and that thw development of improvised melodies over harmonies isban extension of the Tasqism in Baroque Music, whose etymology is an afro-asiatic word (Barack, meaning Lightning or quick thinking or enlightenment).'

End of Quote

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jazzman1945

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Reply with quote  #48 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=35&v=dn_1O3J56E8
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Tristan von Neumann

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Reply with quote  #49 
If I may...


Having compared ICM with European Renaissance and Baroque music for a while now, I also must say that the "all harmony comes from Africa", and Baroque music is from Africa, is really quite a stretch.

The ties to Africa are very old via the Arab conquests and Black African presence on the Iberian Peninsula.
Yet, Baroque music only started to develop when Europe was (re)discovering India (a coincidence it maybe, but I have many reasons to think it is not)
There are more similarities of Europe's 1580-1660 music to Indian Music than to African music.
If anything, Iberian music of the Middle Ages were influenced by North African music, which was then taken over by Arabs and other non-Subsaharan tribes.

Regarding instruments: this is really a very hard discipline. This is music making at its core. Stringed instruments have probably existed since the Stone age, and independently developed from a musical bow, which was a hunting bow on free time...

If you take all what is left of Black African ancient music culture today, it surely must have been declining for a long time in regards to polyphony and harmonic complexity.
If African culture can claim any impact on "Western" music, then it is modern poly-rhythmic styles and the development of jazz in African diaspora from surrounding music styles, also Reggae, and many fusions of Pop Music.
The first Jazz-like music we know of is from Creole pianist Louis-Moreau Gottschalk, who had probably Jewish, but not African ancestry - have fun with this fine piece, where you also can hear that he was friends with Chopin and Liszt while living in Paris:

or this Symphony:


(and of course, there is Beethoven... these minutes of op. 111 are priceless:
)

If you survey for example very early South African music recordings from the late 19th and early 20th century phonographs, you will notice that most of those music styles does not exist anymore and has been taken over by European music.
I had the rare opportunity to listen to those recordings during a lecture given by a South African musicologist, whose point was that Western music completely obliterated many traditions, not on purpose, but by the very own participation of African people who just absorbed everthing new they heard.
Something that never happened in India btw. - ICM is still in very good shape.

True polyphony as in for example 15th century Franco-Flemish music never existed in Africa, as far as we know.
Today, ancient African polyphony is only practiced by remote tribes of Pygmy peoples.
For example:


On the other hand, ICM has steady documentation of its musical development in treatises that are hundreds of years old.
ICM has very complex hidden harmonics, and it practises circular improvisation over rhythm and melodic patterns for ages.

If African includes Arab: the "Maqam" concept is as far as I know younger than the Raga concept.
But who influenced whom is hard to say, because there was always Arab presence in South India.

Now here's two examples of what I think is influenced by or directly copied from India:

(Again, these are mere mashups, not on spot tempo corrected mixes)




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jazzman1945

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Reply with quote  #50 
The name "Bamboula" of Gottschalk's piece  always embarrassed me; immediately recalled the Italian pop song "La Bambola"(Doll) in the 60's. It turns out that this is just a djembe [smile]
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Blind Lemon Mike

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Reply with quote  #51 
@Tristan von Neumann:  are you also from Germany? 

very interesting. I also always had the feeling that there is a connection between early modal music from the medieval period and India, and the western part just developed differently going down the counterpoint route and eventually developing what we now know as "harmony". 

I once read the thesis somewhere that Guido von Arezzo, who is credited for inventing the earliest notation systems for music, got his syllabel idea ( ut re mi fa so  etc ) from the sa re ga ma ..... syllabels of India.  Obviously ,the moment you have more than 1 Voice singing simultaniously the need for notation arises since you would be out of sync otherwise. 

Another that i find interesting ist that a lot of Pre-Renaissance ( and therefore a little bit pre-scientific )approaches to music theory are a lot more based on concepts that we might find in other cultures as well. Some of it beeing "cosmic harmony" and crazy stuff like that but also just things like the linkage of certain music to certains times of the day, like in India . There is a book about that is called  "music in renaissance magic" by Gary Tomlinson that seems to deal with the western side of this phenomenon but i never had the chance to read it yet..

What are some of the similarities that you did observe between renaissance polyphony and ICM? and could you clarify what you mean by "hidden harmonics" ? 

In Jazz the Influence is definetely there in the so-called "modal jazz" era. Coltrane was into Indian music and planned to Study with Shankar as far as i know. That does not mean he stuck to melodic Rules of certain ragas, but he was defintely inspired by indian music. 

George Russel sometime is called to be the "founder" of the chord-scale theory, giving birth to the Idea that there is a scale that most resembles and sounds "one" with a certain chord. The idea to view a chord not as horizontal event that "goes/resolves somewhere" but as a vertical event with a unique sound quality was somewhat knew and bit contrary to bebop. I think there are als guys like Debussy Ravel and Messiaen who played around with the ideo of Chord/Scale realtionships prior to that but for the jazz-world Russel was certainly influential as well. 

While  harmonicly dense music like in Bebop or Bach is somewhat kiling the Rhythmic element i think trough eliminanting (like in ICM ) or reducing the importance of Harmony you gain melodic and especially rhythmic freedom. So you could say modal jazz is partly about what you can do in terms of melodic inventiveness  (and rhythm is obviously an integral part of melody) without beeing in the corset of having to "make the changes" and therefore it is conceputally similar to how i undestand ICM. (within a different setting and framework of course.... )

kind regards
Blind Lemon Mike
.

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Tristan von Neumann

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Reply with quote  #52 
Thanks Mike!

Yes, I'm from Germany, where things worldwide are collected and thought about :)

As it turned out, my initial research has become a huge research project.

In short:

I have come to the conclusion that after the discovery of India by Europeans with actually people going there and hearing music, European music has undergone a real change which is first noticable in 1520s "frottole" and Spanish and Portuguese music, but also - due to the interest of trade companies in all sorts of goods (also cultural) - soon in other places.
In the 16th century, the interest in Ancient Greek music probably led to the search of living music that is based on the same principles.
Since ICM encorporated many influences in the Raga system (like perfect crystals that generate harmony), one of them being the Greek system, it would be only too natural to look in this area.
I have yet to establish some evidence, but the musical evidence is so striking that I consider it already a fact.
It must surely have been collected by the Catholic church too, then the shroud of silence must have been put on the new music.
But the cat was already out of the bag.

The whole 1500--1750 era is very probably the Europeans trying to get a grasp of the Raga system, ultimately culminating in JS Bach, who collected various very old pieces that seemed to clarify to him how it worked.
Already in the 16th century, modal theory underwent important changes.

With the Raga rules, the hidden harmonics lie in the minute ornaments that make the Raga indentifiable - they constitute a harmonic color.
Also a Raga seems to produce perfect counterpoint, albeit linear. Try Dhrupad as a canon - it works! Though Indian musicians with their finely tuned ears probably perceive much more of the harmony and don't need real polyphony.

What was adapted first, as always in music reception, is the "style". The word "style" is something that is in itself new.

We see a change towards more harmonic "clouds" of overtones with stringed instruments as well as a change towards solo performance, the rise of the female singer, very intricate ornaments based on 5, 7, or 10-tuplets already in the 16th century. (Ganassi).
I believe these are the first adaptations of Indian style in European clothing.


One important collection of music that is probably even composed to be played with Indian musicians is the "Partiturbuch Ludwig", a collection of early-mid 17th century Sonatas.
One of these Sonatas even bears the name of probably an Indian musician from Punjab: "Chilana".

Here's my reconstruction - the two tracks have not been manipulated, just played simultaneously! (Pitch adjusted of course).





The famous Pachelbel Canon and source of many 4 chord songs is also Raga Kamod:




How perfectly Bach understood what he was doing can be heard in this mashup:


Thanks!





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geezerjazz

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Reply with quote  #53 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Lemon Mike


In Jazz the Influence is definetely there in the so-called "modal jazz" era. Coltrane was into Indian music and planned to Study with Shankar as far as i know. That does not mean he stuck to melodic Rules of certain ragas, but he was defintely inspired by indian music. 

While  harmonicly dense music like in Bebop or Bach is somewhat kiling the Rhythmic element i think trough eliminanting (like in ICM ) or reducing the importance of Harmony you gain melodic and especially rhythmic freedom. So you could say modal jazz is partly about what you can do in terms of melodic inventiveness  (and rhythm is obviously an integral part of melody) without beeing in the corset of having to "make the changes" and therefore it is conceputally similar to how i undestand ICM. (within a different setting and framework of course.... )



I would disagree with a number of these assertions.

1) Modal jazz developed in the late 1950s, with Ahmad Jamal and Miles Davis being influenced by Morton Gould. Coltrane's own modal tune "Impressions" is plagiarized from Gould. Coltrane's late 1960s plans to study with Shankar were not part of that development.

2) The argument that bebop is rhythmically lacking due to its harmony seems absurd to me. The defining aspect of 1940s bebop is precisely the more complex rhythms, compared to the jazz of the 1930s and 1950s. Bebop rhythms were so complex that the cool jazz and modal jazz of the 1950s was a backlash to bebop, attempting to smooth out the asymmetrical rhythms.

3) The notion that modal jazz was motivated by a desire to escape the "corset" of chord changes also seems dubious. Good jazz players view chord changes not as a limitation, but as a source of ideas and inspiration. It is not limiting in the least. Listen to Miles Davis's "So What" album, and you will hear the musicians actually superimposing chord changes they didn't need to. Coltrane himself evolved to even more complex harmonies after that in his Giant Steps period.
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jazzman1945

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Reply with quote  #54 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Lemon Mike


While  harmonicly dense music like in Bebop or Bach is somewhat kiling the Rhythmic element i think trough eliminanting (like in ICM ) or reducing the importance of Harmony you gain melodic and especially rhythmic freedom. 

 There is certainly something in this. The harmonic scheme is part of rhythm not less than part of the form. The soloists of the bebop tried to break down the form in the melody - to be late, to anticipate, to get out of the quadraticity of the 4 bars; However, the compiing remained in the same place. Tonal harmonic groove in half and walking bass limited rhythmic freedom. Listen to Ornette Coleman, even in the late 50's, you will hear in the melody a combination of traditional symmetry and unexpected breaking of form and harmony.
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