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Tristan von Neumann

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Reply with quote  #1 
I often read that Jog is a recent raga, and that Jaijaiwanti is also not very old.

However, in "Budh Prakash" which is available as an English "translation" (seems more of a summary, or the source is itself only a summary) of a 17th century Persian source "Tashrih-Ul-Moosiqui", both Ragas are mentioned.

There seem to have existed two Jaijaiwanti variants:

Jaijaiwanti and Jaijaiwanti Kanhra (does this explain the two variants known today?)

also, there is:

Shuddha Jog and
Jog Sankali


Does anyone know more?
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Jaiapal

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Reply with quote  #2 
Raga histories can be exceedingly murky.

Jog, for example, is using the older raga, Tilang, as a base. In Rajan Parrikar’s page he outlines that Jog is attributed to an Agra Gharana singer and in it’s original use and composition actually still uses the shuddh nishad like Tilang. He remarks that Agra musicians still use the shuddh nishad now and that other gharanas, who have adopted Jog, have dispensed with it. While using the komal nishad only version, the Malkauns (also an old raga) influence begins to dominate. This could also explain why Jog interpretations also advance the Ma over the Pa in terms of the notes’ gravitational influence over musical passages. If you listen carefully to older artists who are outside of the Agra gharana and are clearly playing the komal nishad only version, they sometimes draw the high komal nishad upwards as they approach high Sa, almost as if to pay homage to the Tilang influence. Another possible creation story for Jog could involve the Carnatic ragam Nattai. (Check out this link
). It involves an especially sharp Re in conjunction with an especially sharp Ga. This creates an effect similar to Jog’s use of both Ga’s.

In terms of Jaijaivanti, something similar is going on. Older ragas, mishmashed together, changing of hands, more amalgamation, etc etc...It has only been recently that ragas have become institutionalized and set in stone. Jaijaivanti in its present, popular use, clearly has elements of Kammaj, Desh, Nat, but most importantly, it’s connection to Desh Malhar with the use of komal gandhar. IMO one of Jaijaivanti’s key phrases, the kan from Pa or Dha to Re seems to come from a Malhar influence. Linking to that structure, a Nat element in the Re Ga Ma Pa area and the phrases of Pa to Ga or Ma and glide back to Re begin to take shape. It’s constant direction towards and resolution on Re also imply a Malhar connection. In terms of variations...it’s important to distinguish between “variant ragas” and “versions of a raga”. I’m sure there are a few “variant ragas” for Jaijaivanti, but I’m only aware of “Jayant Malhar” which, big surprise, links it to Malhar. In terms of “versions” of “Jaijaivanti” I’ve learned that there are two versions: a Desh ang version and a Bageshri ang version. The Desh version is self explanatory and furthers the link with Malhar ragas. The Bageshri version draws into the fold a multitude of Jaijaivanti phrasing patterns concerning the Dha, komal Ni, and Re together. It also draws in phrasing patterns concerning Ma Dha komal Ni and Sa (and Pa). The Bageshri element combined with the Nat element advance the Ma and this powerful Ma can be heard in many recordings of Jaijaivanti.

As you can see, despite many ragas being like alloys of other ragas, they eventually take on their own crest and become a new species...so to speak.
This process is apparent in the use of Carnatic Ragams adapted for Hindustani use. They are usually just recombinations of North Indian Ragas made to ‘resemble’ a Carnatic ragam. Charukeshi in the north is a sort of Nat Bhairavi with hints of Jaunpuri, and maybe even a little Darbari. An artist who plays such a raga must be careful to decide on a concept for their execution and elaborate on their chosen concept. If they don’t, they just noodle around in a scale and it can be an unpleasant thing to hear. Charukeshi is, sadly, an abused raga in this sense, since it has an attractive sound, it tends to draw in people who just want to grab and fondle instead of using it as a medium for raga alchemy. But I digress. Carnatic ragams recently turned Hindustani are a good place to see this raga speciation occurring. Like a raga Galapagos.
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Tristan von Neumann

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Reply with quote  #3 
Thank you for clarifying this!

So there is little actual documentation about the history of Ragas, and people only remember them through their Gharanas.

I wonder how accurate for example the compositions of Tansen are conserved, like in the nonethless great tribute album I found on youtube.


Anyway, would you mind listening to this piece, probably based on Jaijaiwanti?

I'd be happy about any feedback, even educated guessing helps.

The Sonata uses g minor and b minor as the basic chords, but the movements are very intricate.

Can you hear specific movements when you listen to this?

Maybe even the early 17th century version of the Raga can be extracted?
Maybe it is a different Raga altogether.



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Jaiapal

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Reply with quote  #4 
I think there is quite a bit of documentation on raga history actually. The problem is that I don’t know how much is translated. Of course, Bhatkhande is known for writing the definitive text on modern Hindustani music, but written documentation prior to that I personally don’t know much about. I know what my teacher taught me. He was a published historian of Hindustani raga music and the kernel he conveyed to me was that different gharanas played ragas of the same name very differently. Many gharanas specialized in or created ragas. But since independence and popularization the music has become more homogenized. His teacher actually taught him how to play certain ragas “as their gharana would” and then would teach him how to play the same raga “as was in vogue”.

Bhatkhande classifies ragas into the ten Thaats which any student, practitioner or deep appreciator will “probably” acknowledge is basically an almost useless system of classifying ragas. Marwa thaat and Raga Bhatiyar are good examples of this. Marwa Thaat contains tivra Madhyam and Pancham yet Marwa raga contains no Pancham at all. Bhatiyar raga has an extremely strong shuddh Madhyam and only an occasional and fleeting tivra Madhyam in a Marwa cameo phrase but is classified into the Marwa thaat. Countless examples of this. For example, Kanhra ragas being broken up from each other according to Thaat correlation, or (from our previous thread) Asavari having its own Thaat defined by shuddh Rishab, while the Komal Rishab version is older. The komal Rishab version being placed into Bhairavi Thaat, even though a long time ago Bhairavi ragas were defined by shuddh Rishab and shuddh Dhaivat, like Kafi That. It’s a mess.

That being said, yes sometimes talking to scholars or practitioners from different gharanas can help paint a clearer picture. And also remembering that the art form is and has been very fluid. We can only be totally sure of traditions since recording began. And listening to old recordings is helpful. Going back to Jaunpuri, I once had a masters music student at BHU hear me play Jaunpuri and vehemently demanded that I must play Komal Nishad in the ascending passages. This is of course not how I learned it. I learned to play by specifically omitting Komal Ni in ascent, which he said was Shuddh Asavari. I learned from a Been player who played in an older fashioned, Dhrupad style. This is where nomenclature gets tricky. The omission of Komal nishad in ascent links it to Komal Rishab Asavari therefore backing the idea of it being referred to as Shuddh Asavari, yet the difference could’ve come about as a result of preferences of Dhrupad vs. Khyal musicians. Khyal musicians probably preferred the use of Komal Ni in ascent due to mobility while Dhrupad musicians may have preferred the the no Komal Ni ascent due to preference towards longer meend and more stark phrasing. How long ago the “Jaunpuri” title got dropped in I haven’t a clue (anyone else out there know raga history???? Drop in here...) whether it was dropped in before or after the inclusion of Komal Ni in ascent I don’t know. There are quite a few recordings out there (especially Dhrupad ) which are titled Jaunpuri but omit Komal Ni in ascent. Maybe a mistake in identification....maybe not.

The raga Basant Mukhari often comes with a description of being adapted from Carnatic music, but older versions are titled as raga Hijaz. Hijaz is an Arabic Makkam. I was taught that the very idea of the half step intonation came to India via Persian/Arabic music even though ragas like Bhairav, which has a bunch of half step relationships, are thought to be “ancient”.

It sounds like you are looking for relationships between European and Raga music. Unfortunately, due to a lack of notation and documentation, I don’t think using modern raga names will be useful in making comparisons going back over 100-150 years. I would talk to Rabindra Narayan Goswami. He is a senior musician in Varanasi who has done some research into this topic. He has studied the relationships between raga music and Gregorian chanting. Interesting. Find him here:
http://www.rabindragoswami.com
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Jaiapal

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Reply with quote  #5 
It’s also worth noting that similarities between European classical music and modern Hindustani music could’ve actually very very recently arisen. Allaudin Khan was a huge fan of classical music, and his impact on ICM in the last century was immense......
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Tristan von Neumann

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Reply with quote  #6 
Please understand that 16th and 17th century music is the "Dhrupad" of Europe - very few people are interested in it compared to the classical music most people know.

It is not believable that some old Guru had access to the highly specialized repertoire - the parallels between India and Europe in this age are immense.
And it is only logical! The impact of the exploration of India by Europeans was quite a new impression.
It seems people started composing Ragas in European Style.
You have to know that after 1500 suddenly a new "sound" arises in Europe. And it is that of the Indian system.

Listen to this mashup: and tell me - is this just coincidence? I strongly believe not.



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Tristan von Neumann

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Reply with quote  #7 
And is this not Alhaiya Bilawal? Dowland's composition even has an imitation of drums in the final part:

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